Curse

M3lk0r · Apr 05, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Specific PvP based skill changes HARDLY effect normal PvE gameplay. yea sure, you may have to switch 1 skill here and 1 there, but it NEVER has an impact like skills do in PvP.
The only time PvE has a dramatic change is when PvE gameplay is changed, such as NPC AoE-fix or 55hp builds etc.
If you cannot think of a build or use for your prof efficiently, then you pretty much fail at GW.

PvE is already easy as it is, none of the PvP-oriented changes have done anything except hurt the EGO of PvE purists who cant stand the fact the devs have spent some time on somthing other than their never-ending wants.
Not that PvP purists are paragons of virtue (el oh el), but I felt like flaming, so there...

Bankai · Apr 05, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Note: I haven't read the thread.

I have never seen a PvE team with both a necromancer and a spirit spammer in the same team. So 'spirits giving no energy' has zero influence on PvE.

VGJustice · Apr 05, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about Necros losing a bit off the top of their Soul Reaping. I wonder how many of you have considered that maybe while A.Net originally wanted this in the game, they have come to realize that it is simply too powerful. To the PvP crowed, this means that the Necromancer is imbalanced with a greater energy management. To the PvE crowed, this simply makes the game easier (and I'd argue that it makes it too easy). A.Net nerfs the attribute to make it more realistic for PvP play and at the same time brings Necromancers down a peg in PvE play so that everyone has to pull their weight a little more.

And to be perfectly honest, I have no idea why you people are even mildly freaking out. This has been pretty broken for a long, long time.

RTSFirebat · Apr 05, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

You can look at it in many ways, but Soul Reaping is broken and is being abused.

Energy Management is a important part of a any class within game, but the fact that Necro can have almost limitless energy to spam whatever they like is broken.

Only people who are upset are they ones who are abusing it and know they are.

tomcruisejr · Apr 05, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

You can look at it in many ways, but Soul Reaping is broken and is being abused.

Energy Management is a important part of a any class within game, but the fact that Necro can have almost limitless energy to spam whatever they like is broken.

Only people who are upset are they ones who are abusing it and know they are.

Take the 55 monk. Or the solo trappers. They clean everything from level 1 to level something monsters yet they're being untouched because no one in PvP complain about them.

It's not about broken or not broken skills/mechanic. It's about one side of the player base force feeding changes to the other side. That's what's happening. People just blindly say that SR is broken in PvE to justify the appropriate changes in PvP.

VGJustice · Apr 05, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Yeah, let's look at the 55 monk. Didn't A.Net say that they didn't want to overnerf the 55 skills because of how it would effect PvP? And why would they nerf the skills of a solo trapper? Doesn't that take a tremendous amount of patience rather than simply imbalanced skills? How do you balance a skill for patience?

Surena · Apr 05, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

PvE was and is always playable, without any serious flaws, problems, hindrances. Even from the AoE change PvE never suffered, it only did for those who want to play with one hand do other stuff with the other or sleep while "accomplishing" things. Solo-Farming still is possible, I see plenty of people with shiny things and loads of gold. Are you trying to tell me it should still be easier when you can oneman high-level mobs?

PvE is still too easy because it's designed to let you win.

TheLichMonky · Apr 05, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

I dont agree, this didnt affect pve that much

tomcruisejr · Apr 05, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by VGJustice

Yeah, let's look at the 55 monk. Didn't A.Net say that they didn't want to overnerf the 55 skills because of how it would effect PvP?

Yea because some of the skills in 55 are a staple in monk PvP builds, only indicating a bias for pvp.

Quote:

And why would they nerf the skills of a solo trapper? Doesn't that take a tremendous amount of patience rather than simply imbalanced skills? How do you balance a skill for patience?

I think stacking zillions of traps, blowing AIs up and picking up loots ALONE is a broken mechanic.

And Soul Reaping is not a skill.

VGJustice · Apr 05, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Yea because some of the skills in 55 are a staple in monk PvP builds, only indicating a bias for pvp.

Or, maybe they see that Balance in PvP actually has a point where in PvE it's more a matter of being too powerful. Sure, 55 has been pretty powerful in its own right. And see how many monsters have been added to the game with enchantment stripping or attacks that bypass defenses?

Quote:

I think stacking zillions of traps, blowing AIs up and picking up loots ALONE is a broken mechanic.

And I don't see what can be done about that, since as I already stated, that's more of a patience of player than skills being imbalanced or overpowered. If anything, that's exploiting the weakness of the AI which is sorely in need of a buff.

Quote:

And Soul Reaping is not a skill.

Find where I said that that and I'll give you a cookie.

The Ernada · Apr 05, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

When most areas of PVE can be solo farmed, then you know PVE IS easy. Complaining about PVE nerfs and how it's ruined and how it's now hard is just funny.

arcanemacabre · Apr 05, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

When most areas of PVE can be solo farmed, then you know PVE IS easy. Complaining about PVE nerfs and how it's ruined and how it's now hard is just funny.

That is exactly the point. The SR "balance" is not done with PvE even remotely in mind. This change won't make PvE harder, or even more challenging. No. What it will do is make Necros an unwise choice in PvE, be it in a party, or just to play at all. Not because it's "too hard", but because it's just not effective, or not as effective than other classes.

This will most likely damage the class as a whole, rather than just a handful of skills, builds, or even an attribute line. The whole class. I'm gonna wait and see, as usual, before laying out my complete opinion, but I do feel this will not bode well for the PvE Necro.

linh · Apr 05, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

People complain not because it totally effects pve, but because it is a nerf. They haven't seen it in practice yet, but a nerf is always a reason to complain, simple as that.
Like 3252352 threads about AoE nerf, MM nerf and Warrior armor nerf ( Sup Absorb, shield, etc..) before, when updates come out everything is ok soon after that. So just wait for a bit and those threads will RIP.

The Ernada · Apr 05, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

That is exactly the point. The SR "balance" is not done with PvE even remotely in mind. This change won't make PvE harder, or even more challenging. No. What it will do is make Necros an unwise choice in PvE, be it in a party, or just to play at all. Not because it's "too hard", but because it's just not effective, or not as effective than other classes.

This will most likely damage the class as a whole, rather than just a handful of skills, builds, or even an attribute line. The whole class. I'm gonna wait and see, as usual, before laying out my complete opinion, but I do feel this will not bode well for the PvE Necro.

I tell you what. If the doomsayers are right and it totally makes the Necro useless in PVE, I'll join in the mob of righting the wrong. My point about PVE being easy is that almost ANY build/profession is effective in PVE.

Some builds or professions may be less effective than others. And some people will discriminate based on that. But there will always be SOMETHING that's less effective and always be discrimination. That's the PVE mindset though. Anything that isnt an uber killing machine is deemed as useless. Anything that reduces the killing power even just a fraction is deemed "destroying" PVE. I cant understand that mentality or think of any way to fix it.

And to put my post in context, I am a hybrid player. I'm not bashing PVE players because I'm an elitist PVP player.

LONGA · Apr 05, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Funny thou when I go with hench and heroes in PvE doesnt seem to be differnt when skill changes applied.Only notice a few monster become less dangerouse like roaring ether in Vabbi.
Thats mean the skills arent broke when play as intened.Most cashual player wont be too serious about the skill changes anyway.

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 10:29 AM // 10:29

For those people who think that SR was not broken. What other prof can spam 10-15 energy spells non stop at 2-3 second intervals without using any active energy management?

SR was broken broken for PvE as much as the AoE thing was broken. Now its fixed, people have forgotten about AoE nerf about 6 months after the nerf. SR will be fixed accordingly.

SR fix was needed badly in PvP though, although I'm not sure it has actually fully addressed the issue.

Kas · Apr 05, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

This thread is heating up really quick and I assume once we reach the fourth page, we will have a full blown flamewar going on which will get closed on the sixth page.
All this anger and nerdrage alone should indicate that something is going awfully wrong, if such a simple topic as PVE and/or PVP is enough to continously kindle such wrath in the community.

This derives itself from the problem that Guildwars is schrizophrenic by definition. It's sold as a PVE Experience and once the sales are out, the PVE Part gets dropped like a hot potatoe and everything is suddenly catered towards the PVP Crowd. And then comes the next chapter, lo and behold... it's advertised as a PVE Game again! All the new things it has to offer are mainly for PVE. And once it is released A-Net does the Potatoe game again.

This is because A-Net has a tendency for extremes. Something is either black or white with nothing inbetween. A skill rebalance basically simply destroys the skill so it is not viable at all in no given scenario. From hero to zero in one single update. The same tendency is used for community support. One month it is entirely PVE with all those nice little (well when they actually come... whenver it may be) updates and comments. At the same time PVP is neglected and ignored for this period. And after that month, everything goes the other way around.

So, yes.
Guildwars and it's aspects are PVP or PVE. Useful or useless. Happiness or Frustration. And all of these things change in a slow pace according to what kind of extreme A-Net caters to this month.

arcanemacabre · Apr 05, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

I just have to pop in with a nice metaphor of the whole PvE and PvP thing:

Anet treats PvP like it's the supermodel you dream about while you're having sex with your wife (PvE). You can fantasize whoever you like, changing it at will, and in any setting you like, as long as it's good for you, but in the end, you're just ****ing your wife.

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kas

This derives itself from the problem that Guildwars is schrizophrenic by definition. It's sold as a PVE Experience and once the sales are out, the PVE Part gets dropped like a hot potatoe and everything is suddenly catered towards the PVP Crowd. And then comes the next chapter, lo and behold... it's advertised as a PVE Game again! All the new things it has to offer are mainly for PVE. And once it is released A-Net does the Potatoe game again.

Actually GW is sold as a grindless competition driven game.

They even stressed the Competitive Online RPG and not MMORPG
With a level cap of 20 and PvP chars creation, its always biased towards highly replayable PvP content. For PvE, there are many better games than Guild Wars.

For PvP, GW has a niche... for now.

Kas · Apr 05, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

Actually GW is sold as a grindless competition driven game.

Actually... no.
It is described as such if you dig deep enough but on the surface, that which most people see and most magazines test, it's not advertised as such.